Dragon Kill Points.

Raid point system now in place for today's run.

 

Aeternum Guild for details.

I had a feeling something like this was coming...

First, No.

Secondly, what is the system and how do you determine points for those not in Aeternum? Are you keeping track of all alies who may show up for one raid? Do they expire?

I have the same question and Gynis how do we determine pts for players non aeternum...

 

 

 

Nomad.

I do belive they add everyone who was on a raid, no matter what guild they are in. This can be seen by the current listing as seen at:

 

http://www.aeternumguild.net/wowdkp/listmembers.php

right, so im just asking, do i get 3 points for showing up to the defunct raid last night? or does no one get any points. Personally, im not so much a fan of this kind of points system, but hey, its not my call. Honestly i think those people who are benefactors to the guild should get some decent points, even if they cant always make every raid.

 

Eg: maybe like 1 point for helping escort lower level instances or escort quests? I understand this point system is to keep the pick ups from out loot, but i dont have a good feeling about the direction this is going.

 

oh yea, the 1 point this also encourages higher level players to help lower level players get quasi uber gear, and also create more high level players faster, im just saying.

 

In general for me my parents always have to have the fight of the century on a scheduled MC day, and i get tied into it being the oldest. Anyways, its just a thought.

rofl...oh well, maybe this time I'll have a chance at some drops, as opposed to waiting for that magical day everyone else in my class rolls less than 20...

Points for cross guild raids is usually a headache that turns into a nightmare.

Neither myself nor shoop would ever do anything like this because...well...been there, done that, never wish to revisit that administrative nightmare. But on the same hand it's fair. We really don't see it as fair letting some guy who joined like 5 minutes before the Luci fight and roll a win on some epic drop just because he had good luck. Seriously, that undervalues all the work those people who were there for the hur and a half before the raid actually left, recruiting and trying to get everything organized. On the other hand, systems that are fair are inherently unattractive to people. I think gambling is the best example I can come up with of the pretty much universal human ideal of "I'm going to rely on luck rather than a equal trade of work to get me my reward." Would you join a pickup where you had no chance of getting anything from it? It doesn't matter that you're *just* there to help with this one fight and they couldn't do it without you, if you have no shot at a reward you won't waste your time for people you don't know.

 

Of course if you want to add incentive while retaining fairness, then you have to add rules. At this point you run into the problem that Asimov described so beautifully with tax laws: a flat tax is the simplest system, but then you have people making elss money who it's not entirely fair to, so you make exemptions, and then more cases come up and your tax laws become increasingly bloated until they are so complex the people they were originally intended to help can no longer understand them, and only the people who were originally better off can benefit from what was supposed to help the worse off. Hence, it's a balance between complexity and fairness. We'll see how it goes...

Well, I personally prefer the system Order of Kain uses; or at least how I understand it.

 

The way Shoop explained it to me, is that it's a mix of DKP and the standard rolls. Essentially, you earn points which are added to your roll, so if you have 50 points you would do a /random 150, and such. It retains the element of luck, while giving people in good standing an advantage.

 

DKP itself though is something I don't find attractive. I've made several statistical analyses of the system, and in all, it is completely fair. However, my biggest point of contention is the chance to acquire an item on each raid.

 

For example:

I can't make any runs on Saturdays. As such, by the next MC run, I'll be behind by two raids. What does that mean? I need to go on raids where I'll have zero chance of acquiring an item, before I'm effectivley in the system. To me, that is annoying as hell. I don't go to UBRS to get gold to purchase drops, I go there for the drops themselves! It effectively makes me go to MC just to show up.

 

Now, suppose we get a new member. What happens? Even if they attend every raid, they need to wait till most members who have been "in" longer than them get a drop. As you can see, this puts a nice big damper on recruiting for those 60s we need for MC. As I understand it, our goal is to be able to do the instance as a guild, with DKP in place, I have a feeling achieving it will be an increasingly difficult task.

Siege your complaints are exactly the purpose of the system. It is to benefit people who can and do show up, and cause them to show up even if they dont need anything so that the raid doesn't lack members. It also allows entrenched members to get loot when new members have to earn their place.

 

That said, I'd rather have no system (for now) or an RPP system. But its not my call, either.

Just for the record, I have no problem with point systems. In fact, I think they're an excellent way to reward guild activity with loot. It was the system we used in my EQ guild (which meant hinanin could roll on everything and win everything for ever and ever and we all just had to accept that) but it was still a good system.

 

What I do not like, however, is the administrative nightmare that is going to be around the corner when someone from some guild thinks that someone else is calling in favors or stacking the deck. Point systems only work in house, not among the neighborhood. When FP has enough members so I can log on and say "Guild MC raid in 20 min, everyone get to Thorium Point now" is the only time that I would be comfortable with this kind of arrangement. But, like Shoop said. He's not running the raids, so if we want to go, we abide by the system of the leadership. Bleh.

I'm a big fan of the DKP system as long as the runs are consistantly announced a head of time with plenty of notice for all parties.

Now, suppose we get a new member. What happens? Even if they attend every raid, they need to wait till most members who have been \"in\" longer than them get a drop. As you can see, this puts a nice big damper on recruiting for those 60s we need for MC. As I understand it, our goal is to be able to do the instance as a guild, with DKP in place, I have a feeling achieving it will be an increasingly difficult task.

 

Theres a good side and a bad side to everything. Sure we won't be able to recruit new members, however, this will also prevent punkasses from just joining our guild, getting loot, then leaving.

Newbies will still be able to get loot. The DKP will just act as a queue really. The newbies should have accumulated enough DKP to bid after everyone else has speant their points.

What I do not like, however, is the administrative nightmare that is going to be around the corner when someone from some guild thinks that someone else is calling in favors or stacking the deck.

 

Well i would have liked to think you'd trust us to keep loot fair really, but...

 

Dont get me wrong i have no problem with anyone within your guild, solace, or any of the people that come with us on a constant basis getting loot. Id be happy if even ALL the loot went to you guys one run because untill you get enough people to run by yourselfs we ARE an alliance, but if anyone ever thinks i, or anyone else that will be doing loot that day is rigging the system, screenshot your bid! Then you can check who spend what on our website and see that they did infact bid more.

Oops Double Post === Deleted...

im still down for giving it a shot, what the worst that can happen? a pickup gets in the group and ninja's everything?

 

There is one thing that shoop brought up before the raid went south, a rotation for the classes that are more abundant than most. I know this usually causes problems in larger guilds, i have a friend in vindictive and he was bitching about how the GM always invites the class leaders so no one ever gets a chance to get some loot, seriously, who needs 3 epic 1handers?

When we talked about this you didn't mention you'd prefer not to have a system in place. I think its a fair system, but if you would like to change it to something FP would take in more open armed we can talk.

 

err, I don't remember being asked if I wanted one.. only told that there was one and how it will work I'm not one to start fights over stupid stuff anyway. I don't mind this system.

 

In my opinion, earning points and having them added to your max roll and only reset when you win would be a good interim system until we have a steady roster at least, but again as long everyone is equal it doesn't matter to me.

First of all Raz, yes I read your post. I don't believe some of my questions were answered.

 

I'll say this as nicely as possible, but please don't take a condescending tone on these boards.

 

If you weren't, then I apologize, but this comment seemed dismissive and snippy. This, in my opinion, is a bad combo in a place like this.

 

Secondly, like I said, I don't care how you do it one way or the other. I'm not the one organizing the raids, something I have an immense respect for. If it was that easy to put these events together, anyone could do it and would. You've chosen how you want the raids to play out, so if I want to go, I have to sign the waver. But knowing the personalities that arise and how finicky people can get with their loot, this is something that will arise. I just want to make sure the leadership is prepared for it. I don't know you enough to say you're a stand up guy or a filthy rotten cheat, so I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm just expressing concerns where I see they need to be expressed. Don't take offense. Sorry if my surprise and questions took you off guard. This is something I thought would come with more advanced notice.

Eh, you're both misunderstanding each other. Gynis is trying to ask "what will you do when someone decides to go on a Skullcrusher posting spree that we paly favorites and never go on a pickup with Aeternum/FP/Solace/your mother/whatever." It will happen.

 

Raz is trying to figure out why Gynis thinks he'll show Aeternum favoritism when he won't (even if he ninjaed that necklace from me on our first Luci kill...and by ninja I mean rolled higher ).

 

Like I said in my 2nd post: it's an administrative nightmare. I hope we're either extremely lucky and don't get any assholes with a grudge (better move on to the 2nd clause of this...) or Raz and the rest of us can plan sifficiently far enough in advance to head off anything.

Ok, I just thought I'd mention this. When I saw the title of the post... I was wodnering, What the HELL have I done now!?.....hehe.Im glad to see I didnt do anything (which of course Im still doing). =)

phew, he hasn't figured it out yet.

What havent I figured out? What? What? WHAT?..... ooooh shiny!

(this is for Justin even though he probably doesn't check these forums at all anymore)

 

Look at the horsey!