Protests- Proposition 8

Now, this quote is from the Minneapolis link. As it's the closest one to me, I clicked it. The results of the vote on this proposition.. it's 'the will of the people'. Just like any other vote. What this says, is the people of these states, by whatever majority have spoken. This is the decision they've made. Trying to pressure the California government into overturning a vote that was at the will of it's people, isn't going to go over so well.

In a previous election here in Wisconsin, we were presented with something.. a simple yes or no if the death penalty should be reinstated in our state. I voted no. Now.. if the majority of the people of the State of Wisconsin voted no.. and our State government went against the will of the people and reinstated this anyway.. I can tell you some people would be pretty pissed off. This issue is tiny compared to the one in Cali.

I think people expected an overwhelming 'no' vote in California, to go right along with the presidential pick.. but it didn't. I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere trying to force or pressure the government to intervene in something that the public/people who voted on this issue aren't ready to accept.

The time people are taking to protest right now would, in my opinion, be better served informing people about the differences in marriage and civil unions.. for instance marriage is federally recognized (tax purposes and such) while civil unions are not. Misinformation these days ESPECIALLY from the media, makes it that much harder.

I guess what I'm saying here is that trying to force this on a body of people that are not ready or willing to accept it for whatever reason they might have, will not go over well. There are elections/votes on issues every 2 years.. I say keep on fighting for what you believe in, but realize you cannot MAKE anyone see things your way if they're not ready to.

Thruster · November 12, 2008

I don't have a facebook account so I didn't read the links.

I did read Memphistos' post however and offered my 2 cents.

Death Penalty - Yes - As long as the crime fits the punishment.

Gay Marriage - No - There is an opposite sex for a reason.

Let the forum riots begin.. hehe

Sauceboss · November 12, 2008

I see what you're saying Memphis but I totally disagree. The will of the people should NEVER have sway over saying what is right or wrong for innocent civilans when it comes to marriage. The BIGGEST reason ALOT of people are voting no is due to religion. The fact that an omnipotent, invisible, faith dependant being said that when Peenors touch the devil awaken, and thus peenors and vajayjays should never meet in sexy times or holy matrony is retarded.

Homosexuals should get the same rights as ANYONE else. If women and blacks got the same rights then homosexuals should too. A friend of mine has been with his lover for 15 years, but if one of them died, the surviving partner wouldn't be entitled to the same thing that a man an a woman of a year of rocky marriage would be, is so ignorant. Marriage is recognized by the government, it offers special government privilages that all people should be entitled to. It's bullshit that homosexuals aren't given the same rights because people decided to be ignorant jackasses and think that they are better cause they put peenors in vajayjays. ANYONE who voted Yes to prop 8 is no better then the people who kept americans from reciving the same rights because they were black or women.

If we had left womens rights up to the vote of the people, and dudes, since only dudes then, have voted no would you be taking the same stance on the subject as you are now Memphis? Cause I know for DAMN sure if they left black rights up to the retards that bathe in our nation I would be one VERY PISSED half black man.

Memphis · November 12, 2008

If we had left womens rights up to the vote of the people, and dudes, since only dudes then, have voted no would you be taking the same stance on the subject as you are now Memphis? Cause I know for DAMN sure if they left black rights up to the retards that bathe in our nation I would be one VERY PISSED half black man.

I love you Sauce, but I think you totally missed my point.. We basically agree here.. I'm just pointing out how it went down. You can't present an issue to the public.. tell them to decide on it.. and then when it doesn't go the way you'd like, turn around and have the government override it. (and if we can, I have a laundry list I'd like to throw at my own state government because they EFFING SUCK)

Like I said, I'm of the opinion that people should be able to marry whoever they like... the God I believe in doesn't make 'mistakes'.. and when I hear "Love thy neighbor as thyself", to me that means everyone.. not just the ones with blue eyes, and blonde hair... or only the straights. Everyone. No Exceptions.

Thruster · November 12, 2008

Just to clarify my previous statement, I am an Athiest so religion has no impact. Just Biology and Physics.

Second, I am an ignorant jackass for having my opinions.

Anything in those links about abortion?

I'm Pro choice in that area too since that gets dangerously close to invasion of privacy.

Tutubo1 · November 12, 2008

I agree with Memphis.

Daghostmaker · November 12, 2008

The ironic thing is that these marriages had be legalized by votes by the people in the past. Now this time, and it has been widely covered in the media, that with the increased number of black voters, it was overturned. The numbers show 70% of blacks voted Yes on 8. I have no real information to add but I thought it was an interesting social dynamic. The theory of groups of minorities identifying with the oppression of other groups of minorities and all is pretty much shot.

Ezmira · November 12, 2008

Basically, whether it's a vote on gay marriage, death penalty, raising your taxes for a new bike trail, whatever, it comes down to a vote by the people.

If you as government, hear that voice and go against it anyway, then you:

A) Destroy the very fabric of our founder fathers ideas for this country and how we decide major issues in our states and country

B) Should be prepare for the reprocussions and said (possible violent) revolt that is sure to follow.

I have some diferrent view points from most people here, being that i am know as the "FP republican" (BTW, I would prefer "The FP Conservative", my party isn't representing me fully these days.) But I do believe in the american system, and if we start to stray from that/straight up ignore it, then this country as a whole is failing, and this is something I do not want to see happen....EVER.

If people Ban gay marriage, thats will of the people, if they overturn that decision in 2 years because they were informed and have changed their minds, that is the will of the people to. Whether you agree or disagree, this is the process, and when you start thinking you can just bypass the process, you tread dangerous waters of changing the entire government structure.

I for one do not want socialism or communism. Please don't advocate those path's. Neither of them work.

stangmeister · November 12, 2008

I cannot believe anyone would say on these forums that you do not believe gay people should have the right to be married. Absolutely cannot believe it, what a hurtful thing to say here. Fuck you.

Second - they are not protesting what the people voted. They are protesting the likes of my former home states Church ( the mormons) in their ways in which they got these things passed. If you take a look at any of the advertisements the Mormons or any of the Yes on 8 people but out, it was as if they were going to force the Catholics/Mormons to teach their kids that Gay Marriage is alright, and force them to do the weddings in their own churches, which isn't correct.

This whole thing is amazingly similar to the time when it was against gods will and "the people have spoken" that blacks and whites shouldn't be married. Thank god we didn't just give up back then, and these protests are us not giving up now.

Yes - the vote shouldn't be overturned and it wont be. What will happen is there will be another measure to vote on next exelction, which will hopefully overturn this last one. Protests are a measure to get attention to your issue and to get things done about it. I for one applaude them for trying.

Ezmira · November 12, 2008

I cannot believe anyone would say on these forums that you do not believe gay people should have the right to be married. Absolutely cannot believe it, what a hurtful thing to say here. Fuck you.

I took a look back through the posts, and I didn't see anywhere where someone said this Matt. =/

So if you are yelling at me, you are misguided.

I personally believe that gay people should have the same legal rights in america at this point as straight people. I may not morally agree with it, but that's my upbringing and religion. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get the tax breaks and respect from the community. You are my friend, family, and in essence a brother. You should have the same rights as everyone else. I beleive it will happen. All within due process.

Does ignorance suck? yes. Will things change? yes, i believe they will.

So please don't be yelling at me, I am just trying to point out at the american system needs to work, cause if you tamper with it things go very bad. That's all.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Ezmira

stangmeister · November 12, 2008

Death Penalty - Yes - As long as the crime fits the punishment.

Gay Marriage - No - There is an opposite sex for a reason.

Shadrende · November 12, 2008

The big issue here is that by saying gay people don't have the right to get a recognized marriage, you are calling them second class citizens. If that is the case, why should you expect them to pay taxes, pay social security, or anything else that EVERYONE is expected to in this country. The fact that people are still in the mindset to treat people in this fashion sickens me, and anyone that thinks like that should be ashamed of themselves.

Sanctity · November 12, 2008

Just wanted to say Thank You, Master Stangmeister, for your posts. I completely agree, though I also say Fuck Religious Zelots who it is use religion to take away the rights of others.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Sanctity

Gynis · November 12, 2008

There are certainly some interesting thoughts here, a few that I think are out of left field.

And Thruster, I'm writing you off as a troll, so don't expect much of a response on derisive one-liners with no real thought process behind them.

First, Gay marriage WAS voted on by the people, as a law, and accepted. It was then taken back to the public again for an amendment to overturn it. So the idea that "the people have spoken" cuts both ways. Sorry, thems the facts. Additionally, the majority doesn't mean that we have to accept it. Denying civil rights based on race in the south was the MAJORITY of the people in 1955. It has since been shown to be an ignorant majority. I expect this will result in the same kind of enlightenment, especially if people's tax exempt status starts to get toyed with. It will however, take the hard work of those who are directly impactd by this (the gays not allowed to marry) before those who really don't have anything to do with it (save moral outrage and moral grandstanding) to realize their goals.

Politics aside, let me make one more thing perfectly clear.

FP has rules. Rules that govern these forums and that the leadership WILL enforce. Ideas are great. Even controversial ones. But should this discussion get out of hand (as it is already poised to do) I will shut it down and remove it faster than you can click "refresh" on your browser to make your response.

Keep your tones civil, this discussion constructive, and your tempers in check. I can assure you that FP does not enjoy freedom of expression or speech. Here, you keep your quippy comments and defamation in your nighttime journal. Having FP members make asses of themselves here is not my cup of tea.

stangmeister · November 12, 2008

I can use pretty colors too.

After I have had my coffee, I realized I should probly edit out my cuss word, but naw, I'll leave it to show even the moderators can get razzled.

I guess I'll just leave it at think before you vote. There are real implications to the things you do at the booth. We're electing black presidents and stripping rights from another class of people. Kinda weird twist on things but whatever. The only reason I get so excited about all this is because it truely does affect me and those I love. Saying marriage is a sacred union, yeah, tell that to my parents who both got divorced 3 times each. Something so many people take for granted, and yet something so far out of reach for a lot of us.

Im dragging Gynis to the Atlanta protest this Friday. Even though its futile, its a way to get the frustration out.

lemontree · November 12, 2008

"We need to recognize that a government that would deny a gay man the right to bridal registry is a fascist state." — Margaret Cho

dragonlgnd · November 12, 2008

On a quick note, Marriage is a religious thing, and is recognized by the government. There's more to it then that, but my kid is down stairs fussing and crying and I need to check on him.

Also, there has only been 1 outburst so far, which surprises me since this was going smoothly and was a sharing of opinions until then.

lemontree · November 12, 2008

religious according to who? i had no mention of any god at all when i got married.

at its base, marriage is a legal contract. why shouldn't the gays get a legal contract as well?

pulled from http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/marriage

In 1996, President Clinton signed into law the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which, for federal purposes, defined marraige as "only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife" (1 U.S.C. § 7). DOMA further provided that "No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship" (28 U.S.C. § 1738C). (See Conflict of laws, Constitutional law)

that isn't the pope, it's a law. my absolute rejection of god in any form probably lends a hand to my view on this, but that's my story and i'm stickin to it

edited for typos!

Edited November 12, 2008 by lemontree

Fiordelisa · November 12, 2008

I think they should remove the word "marriage" from government. If the government was to replace the word 'marriage' with 'civil union' then I think a lot of people's opinions would change. Give all the same tax breaks and property rights to anyone who enters into a civil union, and let the church decide whether or not you are "married".

I'm not gay, so I don't know how you guys feel about the word marriage...but I like the idea of separating the religious terms from the laws.

Enigami · November 12, 2008

The fact that anyone has a say in this besides the people directly involved makes me sick. They aren't hurting anyone, they aren't forcing someone to do something against their will, or causing any harm. These are two adult HUMAN BEINGS deciding to be together. I can't believe we live in a country where this is even an issue. Who I decide to marry should be up to me and that person, no one else.

It is sad. I do believe there will be a day where I can attend my best friends' wedding. For now, let the people angry and hurt and upset show their frustration. Just like it was the people's right to vote against gay marriage, it is now the gay people's right to freely speak out against it.

Daghostmaker · November 12, 2008

Wow. This thread has taken an ugly turn since last night.

Ryee · November 12, 2008

Gay Marriage - No - There is an opposite sex for a reason.

Let the forum riots begin.. hehe

[removed]

Explain to me, if you can, what your "reason" is for there being an opposite sex, as it relates to gay marriage.

Maybe it stems from some misguided religious belief, where you think that, since homosexuality was spoken against in the Bible it must be bad. If you're audacious enough to try and quote the Old Testament Levitic laws to me to make your case, I hope you don't wear shirts made with more than one fiber (including polyester), manage to follow all the dietary laws, are circumcised, uphold Sabbath work codes, et al. If you don't, I'll see you in whatever cozy ring of hell Dante had in mind for us.

If you want to look at the New Testament, there is only one mention of this by Christ himself, while the other myriad of things he preaches against (murder, persecution, prostitution, affairs, etc) are all perfectly acceptable and do not disqualify you from being married, or dissolve a current marriage if you commit one of these offenses. The two or three other mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament are by Paul, in his writings to the Thessalonians and Corinthians. Paul's a pretty stand up guy, but he's not God.

Maybe you feel that from some reproductive stand point, homosexuality is against the natural order of things. That a penis and vagina are made to go together, in order to continue a species. Homosexual (in a very literal sense--same sex) interactions are not unique to humans. Black swans, gulls, mallards, penguins, two types of dolphins, bisons, a few species of apes and monkeys, elephants, giraffes, polecats, sheep, hyenas, dragonflies, fruit flies (stop me when you're bored), hell even your own horny dog with no good prospects around, all in some form are known to practice same-sex interaction (be it sex, mating patterns, territorial dominance). So to call it unnatural; that is, not found in nature, is a little odd. But perhaps you feel that as a more sentient species, we should realize that only male and female should participate in sex--that, perhaps, the stupid dragon flies don't realize they can't knock up another guy. So if you want to argue that sex is something used for procreation, you've just started yourself down a slippery slope. Do you always have sex with a woman with the intent of making a baby? If you don't, do you realize you're in violation with a good deal of Catholic and Anglican based religions, which preach against having sex unless it is both unitive and procreative?, effectively prohibiting the use of contraception (birth-control, IUDs, condoms, morning after pills).

So pick or choose. If you're religious, I hope you're following all the guidelines prescribed by your faith in regards to sex (and perhaps what to have for dinner every night), otherwise leave it alone before I call you a hypocrite. If you are non-religious and have some opposition to it from a natural standpoint, see above.

Homosexuality isn't something our generation, our country, has dreamed up in the last 100 years. Homosexuality has existed across cultures and continents as far back as antiquity. Age-structured homosexuality was predominant in Ancient Greece (pederasty). Nearly all of East Asia acknowledged Gender-structured homosexuality (one person playing a more feminine, submissive role; see Dream of the Red Chamber), and is still not prohibited legally there today. Other cultures, such as Persia, Turkey, some Arabic nations (Iran - "There are no gay people in Iran") all practice (although not openly for fear of political persecution) age or gender structured homosexuality. More and more Egalitarian relationships are becoming the norm in Western cultures today.

For you to come onto these forums, KNOWING that there are openly gay people in this guild who will read your comments, is the worst kind of trolling. How dare you tell me that my sexual identity is invalid because "there is an opposite sex for a reason." How dare you presume to know anything about me, to think that you could understand any of the frustration and difficulty coming to terms with a sexual identity that is unpopular in the country and time I was born into. How dare you tell me that I am not allowed to have a union with the same rights as heterosexual marriage because of some misguided, antiquated belief. How dare you come into my guild, my forums, a place where I can rely on people liking me for who I am, not who I sleep with, and stand on your soapbox and stir up trouble where it isn't needed or welcome.

I'd personally gkick you the moment I got home if I felt it would stick.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Gynis
I kept the "non name calling" parts.

dragonlgnd · November 12, 2008

I'm requesting that this be closed, the people I'd expect to be civil are not being so, and this will get worse and get closed anyways.

Enigami · November 12, 2008

Joey, I want to hug you so bad right now.

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