Can I ZA?

Please have a look at my armory. I realize that you can see my two hander but I have epic shield and sword. My total defense is 511 and hp unbuffed 14,9k. What I would like to know is if this is sufficient for MT ZA or should I continue to get badges for the moment.

listen, I'll twigs is all you gotta know!

I would drop your def a little bit and try to increase a few other stats.

Gryph hit the nail on the head. As soon as you pass 490 Def start looking at other stats. Stacking Def is only good if you are going for Passive Uncrushable, which you can't achieve without the help of a few pieces of SSC/TK/ZA gear.

 

Specific recommendations:

-Replace your Def cloak enchant with Dodge or Agi or even Armor

-Replace any +Def gems with +Stam.

-In fact, I would replace any gem that is not at least a +12 Stam with a Solid Star...but I like Stam...a lot.

-Get a Gyro Balanced Khorium Destroyer crafted. Put a Stam or Hit gem in it.

-Can't comment on weapon/shield, but Mongoose and +18 Stam are fan favorites.

 

Bottom line, yeah you could probably tank ZA, but upping your health pool will make your healers' jobs a lot easier.

 

PS-BoJ Belt, neck, and cloak would help you a lot. And some tanking boots.

 

Guys this is great advice I will follow that for sure. I will buy Gyro Balance destroyer and gem it with stamina.

 

Hopefully I will get tanking boots in kara at chess and the kings defender which I wil mongoose. For now I have Honor Call sword and shatar rep shield. I am also working on badges of Justice and will upgrade other parts. There are also boots dropping at first ZA boss that would be a nice addition when I start tankin it.

 

In conclusion I will continue to upgrade till you guys tell me that I can decently be healed for ZA.

what does passive uncrushable mean?

 

/tank in training

Uncrushable means that you cannot be hit by a crushing blow (150% of normal damage).

 

Warriors easily achieve uncrushability by using their Shield Block ability, which adds 75% mitigation on top of whatever you normally have. 102.4% mitigation is required in order to not be hit by a crushing blow. 5/5 Deflection (5% Parry) and your stats from gear should easily make up the difference, otherwise you must be tanking naked.

 

Passive Uncrushable is when you attain 102.4% mitigation without the use of Shield Block. This is useful (although only mildly) for bosses that Dual Wield, Hit Fast, and deliver Crushing Blows.

 

For example, Prince can crush, he dw's, and hits really fast which can cause problems for undergeared tanks or warriors that don't Shield Block at every opportunity. Also, if a boss Parries the tank, or anyone else, his next attack will be 40% faster(which is why melee DPS stands behind the bosses). There are a few other bosses like this, but in WotLK it looks like they are removing Crushing Blows all together.

 

I really only use my Passive Uncrush set on Tidewalker because it makes him a joke for a warrior tank. Other than that, I might throw that set on to grind mobs as prot, since they can barely hit me.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Beckbristow

cooool thanks beck.

I thought the "reset bosses swing timer" (fast extra attack) thingie was when the boss parries you, rather when you parry him? When you parry, doesn't it make your next (counter-)attack faster? (I gathered that's one of the bonuses of the expertise stat, that reduces your target's parries. It also makes Parry a bit of a threat stat.)

 

Side note: Not all bosses can crush (ex. ZA bear) - Dunno exactly why bliz made that choice, but there it is. Some other bosses are the same (Illidan, Archimonde can't iirc.) Trash shouldn't be able to crush unless it's L73 or has some special bonus (apparently you have to be 3 levels higher to crush the target.)

 

Besides crit immunity, Defense is a very good avoidance stat. A Defense gem increases parry + dodge by almost as much as a Dodge gem, and then adds bonus shield blocks as a bonus... Assuming you want avoidance more than/as well as stam. That's probably more of a big deal for tankadins than prot warriors, I dunno. Tankadins love teh avoidance, and get threat from blocks.

 

For tankadins several of the defense enchants are better than stam / mitigation options (but I'm not sure how warrior's needs compare):

 

Meta (12 Def/+10% BV ~ 18 Stam/Stun resist) - BV gives you threat if you need it, and it scales. 18 Stam + Kings is a lot though, so might be good to choose based on your needs (maybe one of each on different sets of gear?)

 

Helm (Glyph of the Defender > 10 stam) - 2% Avoidance ftw

 

Cloak (120 Armor ~ 12 Def > 12 Agi)

 

Gloves (10 Sta ~ 15 Agi ~ 240 Armor) - Armor is better for very high level gear, as it scales. Agi = .6% dodge + threat. The stam armor patch is cheap!

 

Bracers (12 Sta ~ 12 Def)

 

Chest (150 health ~ 15 Def) - Defense scales, as long as you don't need the health.

 

I notice warriors tend to stack stamina gems in every slot. There's probably good reasons for that (mainly your 75% shield block thingie). Pallies need to stack a zillion different stats, it's annoying!

Even for a warrior, I would give some thought to socket bonuses before just tossing +12 stam in everything... If you have a single red socket that would give you a +4 stam bonus, why not use a dodge gem? More bang for the buck is good!

 

About ZA - My tankadin has no problem MTing everything in there, although of course it depends on your healers. That frigging Lynx hits hard! With Karazhan or badge gear or equivalent in every slot, you're good to go. Brightpetra is all set except for my old blue hat, that will be replaced when damn Hexlord Malacross finally drops his!

 

http://be.imba.hu/ is a very cool site - Check out what they calculate you are ready for, as well as tips on gear tweaks!

Edited July 29, 2008 by Fatherpeteus

Yes, when the Boss Parries you(or anyone) his next attack is 40% faster.

Yes, when you Parry the Boss your next attack is also faster.

 

I apparently didn't proofread my post as well as I thought.

 

Stacking Def for a warrior is absolutely insane. If you are going for an avoidance build, which you really shouldn't be until late T5 at the earliest(in my opinion), gemming for specific stats is better than straight Def.

 

Stacking Def is only a viable option for trying to achieve Passive Uncrushability, because it does affect more mitigation stats than simply gemming for Dodge or Parry.

 

My opinion is Stam is king until you start getting T6 gear, which is itemized a lot more towards avoidance.

Beck and FatherPetus... you are truly my brothers from another mother! I love talking about the mechanics of tanking! You two are some of the very few that actually know how it works!

 

 

Aigle, take some time to read www.tankspot.com. There is a LOT of information there to help you understand how to tank better. I think you will really enjoy it!

I've always been a big fan of block rating/stamina and then block value. I want by block rating as high as possible in order to take x amount off the top of the damage that the boss does. I prefer block rating over dodge/parry due to the stability that block rating provides for the healers in the group.

 

I want healers to know that the boss usually takes "x" amount off my health bar so the "oh crap" heals can be saved when I really need them. Also the stability makes sure that they use their mana wisely and don't over heal because they aren't sure if you'll dodge. Dodge/parry tend to be too random and overall dodge is better left for bear tanks. Also, since people tend to go nuts on damage due to the time pressure of ZA, I would rather take a hit and therefore have rage in order to add threat then dodge and lose on the rage.

 

I agree though, stam is the main start and then go for block and after that whatever else you lack...though stay to dodge and less on parry.

 

I ulimately shoot for 20-25% dodge, 25% or so block, parry doesn't matter. Of course 490 defense.

 

HP is always as high as you can get it without sacrificing the other stats. The best I got my block rating is high 800 or so, but that's with T5 bonus also.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Vanin

Vanin explained the rationale behind Stam Stacking very well. I have a health pool THIS BIG and on average the Boss hits me THIS HARD, my healers learn that every X AMOUNT OF TIME I usually need a THIS BIG HEAL.

 

Avoidance tanks make healers cry themselves to sleep.

Healer: Wow the tank isn't taking any damage.

Tank: Dodge, dodge, parry..

Healer: OMFG SPAM HEALS CDs ZOMG

Tank: Kersplat.

 

Block rating is also a very good mitigation stat, although it's hard to find on any decent gear before T5.

 

 

yea im not too much a fan of dodging at all, no rage gain and the not taking damage. someone was telling me you only need 25% block rating because with shield block it makes it 100% but since you cant have shield block up 100% of the time having more block rating is worth it. block value and stam are probably my favorite tank stats.

I definitely defer to Beck (and anyone else who has a warrior tank higher than my L20 draeni - lol) about warriors and rage and all that stuff

As a healer I know what you mean about the avoidance tanking thing. Bored healers during a dodge spree = bad news on the next damage spike. I usually don't mind though, there's probably something good on TV!

 

The mechanics of the different tanking classes are very different (makes for kindof cool variety). Pallies need a lot more avoidance (along with block rating) to be uncrushable because our shield isn't as cool as the warrior's. And when we're AOE tanking 20 dragonhawks or ghouls or whatever, theorycrafters say avoidance is best. Stamina is recommended for progression boss tanking (although it's kindof rare for a Tankadin to have that role), and threat is good for farming bosses.

 

Tankadins do have a similar problem with getting mana-starved in certain situations if we don't take enough damage (and if we have no mana for consecrate we're pretty well ducked for AOE tanking!)

AOE tanking being a very different beast from standing toe to toe with Gruul or Supremus, and we can always take enough damage to keep the mana and threat up by making sure a couple of the mobs are at our back so we can't parry or block them.

 

But yeah, I don't know if warriors are as bad with the gear-swapping for different tanking sets - My bags are so full of gear, I'm always having to discard stuff I don't really want to I have a full healing set and dps set of course, then stamina gear, threat gear, and avoidance gear just for tanking. At least when I mix and match that stuff I can usually come up with a set that works OK for any situation.

Ideally to approach gear-swapping, you can get a lot of bang for the buck by enchanting to the strength of your alternative pieces. Then you can carry [item]Devilshark Cape[/item] with a +2% Dodge enchant as well as [item]Gilded Thorium Cloak[/item] with +120 armor enchant. Then one swapped piece makes a big shift from avoidance to mitigation. Shields are another good one for specialization... [item]Crest of the Sha'tar[/item]+Stam gems and enchant, then [item]Bulwark of the Amani Empire[/item] with BV enchant (and even a parry or agi gem?) for a great threat piece.

 

I probably overdo it with all the min-maxing and gear sets, but meh. It's there.

 

---

Aigle, after I tried to armory you and found a L64 pally, I figued it out ^^ ... Waraigle stacks up really well on the Be Imba site! With all of the investment in good gems and enchants, it says you are ready to tank anything in ZA (or SSC or TK, and even start BT or Hyjal). And you can easily improve your weapon (Zul'Jin drops a nice axe) and ranged slot, and some others. The easy bear boss drops [item]Jungle Stompers[/item] too, that you could use.

 

Go get started on ZA, you should be ready!

Wow thank you for all the explanations guys I will follow that closely. Please have a look at my armory I have added tanking boots this week-end and changed lots of gems to +stam gems. I now have 42 badges of justice. What should be next item to change?

 

Should have the 65 required for the tanking belt in a week or so. There is also a cape?

 

What is your opinion? You may realize I dont have my tanking sword as Decapitator seems to provide more rage on easy pulls.

The cape from Illhoof and the one from badges are both pretty nice.

OK ill wait for Ilhoof cape and buy belt from badges of justice. It's 75 badges nad I have 47 so not too bad.

The bear boss in ZA can't crush, but others can. I know this because the Eagle boss's crushing blows hit about as hard as the robot guys in Kara... which just shows how hard they hit.. or how soft the eagle boss hits. Also I found out the hard way, the trash in Mag's lair can crush, I cannot remember if the adds or weapons during the Kael fight can crush.

 

There were a couple other spots that had some surprise crushes, but I can't remember where they are, as a warrior though you don't have any real worry, shield block ftw!

I have done Eagle boss last evening with Swaloads and I must admit my tanking gear was perfectly ok for this. On the bear boss however I was ok but Grimauld need to gear up a little. We will take care of that with more Kara Gruul run. Grimauld is doing great he just need to gear a little or maybe a lot.

 

I am certain I can tank with ease those two bosses so it's cool. I don't know how hard the other bosses in ZA hit but these two are ok for me as long as we have strong healers.

 

Question: is ZA getting harder with the next bosses?

I have done Eagle boss last evening with Swaloads and I must admit my tanking gear was perfectly ok for this. On the bear boss however I was ok but Grimauld need to gear up a little...

Question: is ZA getting harder with the next bosses?

The Bear hits pretty hard, the Eagle is a gimp That fight is all about collapsing and spreading back out, and some raid healing.

 

The Lynx is like the bear on PCP - With bad luck he can two-shot a T4-5ish tank with his sabre lashes. (Those are really nice to dodge!) Healers have to be really on the ball there.

 

Dragonhawk is a very different fight. Offtanking is trickier than tanking the boss - 20 adds at a time, with other lethal effects going on around you. I've never tried that without a paladin OT, although I gather a bear can do it (but it must be more complicated). The boss himself is similar to the eagle, but does an enrage around 30% and starts hitting pretty hard.

 

Malacross and Zul'jin are much harder on the healers than the tank because of massive raid damage. Zul'jin doesn't need an OT.

 

Beck remember how you like to fight against being a nerd? Yeah.......

Beck remember how you like to fight against being a nerd? Yeah.......

 

I don't understand what you talking about?

He means that I know way too much theorycraft on tanking to not consider myself a nerd...

 

But I'm not a FCKING nerd!

 

I just like to know as much as I can about what I do, so I can try to be the best it...even if I'm not.

Ok I understand and I agree you not a F nerd. You are passionate about what you do thats all.

 

Please have a look at my armory you will see that things are improving I believe.